1 00:00:01,100 --> 00:00:03,200 I fucking hate you. 2 00:00:03,280 --> 00:00:05,460 Everything you've said to me, it hurts. 3 00:00:05,460 --> 00:00:06,920 But I know it's... 4 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,320 But I wanna make sure it's not you being a jerk. 5 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:10,660 I wanna make sure that... 6 00:00:10,660 --> 00:00:15,220 'Cause I... what context to say: 7 00:00:15,220 --> 00:00:19,600 What's your earliest memory of that feeling? 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:41,080 A men's group is a group of men who meet periodically to talk about life. 9 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,680 For support when men grieve. 10 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,520 To find human connection. 11 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,700 To examine the male identity. 12 00:00:50,700 --> 00:00:53,780 To disclose and have deep-rooted, personal feelings, 13 00:00:53,780 --> 00:00:57,980 including the ones that society doesn't welcome. 14 00:00:57,980 --> 00:01:05,320 And, sometimes, to remind one another of inner wounds. 15 00:01:05,320 --> 00:01:11,780 It's a place for unguarded conversations, to investigate, with a council of men, 16 00:01:11,780 --> 00:01:14,960 the riddles of life. 17 00:01:26,660 --> 00:01:32,040 Yeah, one of the things that I find most valuable about men's groups is that there's a chance 18 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,200 to recognize what is immediately present. 19 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:41,440 Like, if I am afraid, then okay: I'm afraid. 20 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,180 And that's the truth for that moment. 21 00:01:44,190 --> 00:01:48,100 And it's possible to be open about the truth of the moment 22 00:01:48,100 --> 00:01:52,000 without having it define my whole life. 23 00:01:52,020 --> 00:01:54,120 It doesn't mean I'm always like that. 24 00:01:54,140 --> 00:01:59,540 But, I can kinda explore every facet of myself that maybe doesn't get that much space 25 00:01:59,540 --> 00:02:01,040 in everyday life. 26 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:07,080 Could be anger, could be fear, could be insecurity... 27 00:02:07,100 --> 00:02:11,080 It could also be, um... 28 00:02:11,640 --> 00:02:14,300 Maybe even self-acknowledging... 29 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:16,730 Like, self-acknowledgement can also be taboo. 30 00:02:16,730 --> 00:02:19,120 It can be taboo in either direction. 31 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:24,720 And, I think, to explore the full range of being human and being a man 32 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:30,260 is one of the gifts that a men's group offers. 33 00:02:30,660 --> 00:02:33,840 My ability to listen is improved greatly. 34 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:40,160 'Cause when men share, I get an energetic bump. 35 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:42,160 One, because it identifies with me. 36 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,020 I go: Me too. 37 00:02:44,020 --> 00:02:45,140 Me too, me too, me too. 38 00:02:45,140 --> 00:02:46,140 Like, I hear... 39 00:02:46,140 --> 00:02:48,320 I identify with... 40 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,760 Almost without exception, every time a man shares, there's something about his sharing 41 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:53,080 that is in me too. 42 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,060 And this is the beauty, I think, of a men's group. 43 00:02:55,069 --> 00:03:01,890 It's that we can be strangers that come together, but we share what it's like to be a man. 44 00:03:01,890 --> 00:03:03,260 And, we've all had... 45 00:03:03,260 --> 00:03:05,380 We come from different cultures and different upbringings. 46 00:03:05,390 --> 00:03:08,040 But, it's a shared experience. 47 00:03:08,060 --> 00:03:13,560 So, to have the company, the fellowship of men and know that: You belong here. 48 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,320 You may feel isolated, and your experiences have been different, 49 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:20,900 but there's a shared experience. That... 50 00:03:20,900 --> 00:03:23,020 We all heal when when we're together. 51 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,360 Expression gives rise to clarity. 52 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:29,660 So, it is not always… 53 00:03:29,660 --> 00:03:32,660 I think after something is being expressed, then it can change. 54 00:03:32,660 --> 00:03:34,540 It can transform. 55 00:03:34,540 --> 00:03:41,340 But if I keep it inside myself and not tell anyone, then it can get stuck. 56 00:03:41,340 --> 00:03:42,880 And it can become a problem. 57 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,740 But once I express it, then suddenly it changes. 58 00:03:45,740 --> 00:03:50,760 So, I think, with expression, it's not about the expression in itself having to be 59 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,900 very meaningful or it being a certain way. 60 00:03:53,900 --> 00:03:59,060 It's more about the process itself of expressing whatever is there will... 61 00:03:59,060 --> 00:04:01,880 ...give it an opportunity to change and move. 62 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:12,660 One of the wonderful side-effects of any form of self-disclosure is: you learn about yourself. 63 00:04:12,660 --> 00:04:17,660 When you start opening up to others, you start hearing yourself say things 64 00:04:17,660 --> 00:04:20,060 that you weren't so clear about. 65 00:04:20,060 --> 00:04:25,940 Yeah, can we create a forum, where we can have space, so we can really show up? 66 00:04:25,949 --> 00:04:27,650 So, who shows up? 67 00:04:27,650 --> 00:04:31,879 Our lover, our killer, our judger. 68 00:04:31,879 --> 00:04:36,339 All the traits, all the things that we've been informed is like... 69 00:04:36,339 --> 00:04:37,339 Mmm, that's not good. 70 00:04:37,339 --> 00:04:39,139 No, no, no, I don't want to see that. 71 00:04:39,139 --> 00:04:40,710 But if we have that in us... 72 00:04:40,710 --> 00:04:46,770 The tantrums we weren't being able to have, our disgust with whatever, even our parents, 73 00:04:46,770 --> 00:04:50,080 our sexual fantasies. 74 00:04:51,100 --> 00:04:53,460 Like openly share this stuff. 75 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:58,220 So that we can a) realize that that doesn't diminish our goodness. 76 00:04:58,260 --> 00:05:00,640 We're humans. 77 00:05:12,540 --> 00:05:17,620 Is there something you can do in a men's group specifically well 78 00:05:17,620 --> 00:05:20,620 that you wouldn't be able to do on your own, 79 00:05:20,620 --> 00:05:24,760 with your spouse, with a normal psychotherapist? 80 00:05:25,700 --> 00:05:30,780 I mean, I don't know if it's exclusive to a men's group, but I find a men's group 81 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,560 is a perfect laboratory to try things out. 82 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,380 If it's built... if it's got some good... if it's got good principles 83 00:05:39,380 --> 00:05:46,980 (confidentiality and whatever those might be) to make you feel safe. 84 00:05:46,980 --> 00:05:51,540 That's the place where you can really kick the tires, test the waters, 85 00:05:51,540 --> 00:05:59,600 and see what the reaction will be and see how well (or not) it lands, 86 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,680 you're accepted. 87 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:07,980 What surprises me is when I see men share in a men's group, and you get a sense 88 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,900 it's something really risky for them, it's something they haven't told anybody, 89 00:06:10,900 --> 00:06:14,400 or they're ashamed of it and they really want to put it out there... 90 00:06:15,780 --> 00:06:20,780 When they get the resonance back, where, if you inquire and say: 91 00:06:20,780 --> 00:06:24,330 Well, he just said something that was pretty risky, and, you know, it was something personal, 92 00:06:24,330 --> 00:06:28,700 does anybody relate to this? ― and you see the majority of hands go up. 93 00:06:28,700 --> 00:06:33,720 That's sort of breaking the isolation that we think of ourselves as 94 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,260 I'm the only one who thinks this way or has these opinions. 95 00:06:36,260 --> 00:06:44,540 And when you see other men are like... can identify with it, it validates your being. 96 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:50,800 There is often a limited understanding of what love and care means. 97 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,960 And I think that, unfortunately, some of the gifts that men can bring 98 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:02,540 (which is, often, a bit different from what women bring), has not been valued enough. 99 00:07:02,580 --> 00:07:10,540 That, to challenge someone else, or challenge oneself, or to go into something that is difficult, 100 00:07:10,540 --> 00:07:14,580 with fierceness and commitment, like: "Let's figure this out!" 101 00:07:14,580 --> 00:07:18,080 That can be an act of love and care. 102 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,820 But there is often a lot of fear of this intensity. 103 00:07:21,820 --> 00:07:27,960 And I think that's very sad because it's, uh... misunderstanding... 104 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:38,160 And because it's misunderstood. There's a lot of confusion around the potential, 105 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:43,960 kinda cutting-through ability that, perhaps, is a bit stronger in men than in women. 106 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,040 And that confusion can also lead to 107 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:52,340 that it cannot really be used appropriately and effectively in the world. 108 00:07:52,340 --> 00:07:57,500 But the men's groups can be a training ground to use this ability to cut through the bullshit 109 00:07:57,500 --> 00:08:03,000 in oneself, in relationships, in work, and so on. 110 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,480 And that's an aspect of love and care as I see it. 111 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:21,700 Groups of both men and women have their own unique attributes too, 112 00:08:21,700 --> 00:08:26,440 but there are things that only men can do for other men. 113 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:32,880 Men's groups are a place to get a supportive connection with other men in an all-male environment, 114 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,680 to which many men have no easy access and which they may have been told 115 00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:40,840 cannot be entirely trusted. 116 00:08:41,540 --> 00:08:44,680 Yes, you know, in terms of civil liberties, we're all equal. 117 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:48,230 In terms of, you know, laws, et cetera. 118 00:08:48,230 --> 00:08:50,040 At least, ideally we should be. 119 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,000 I mean, that's a struggle we have, you know, as a society. 120 00:08:53,020 --> 00:09:01,360 But no, we aren't equal, in our temperaments, our psychologies, our proclivities, et cetera. 121 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:07,680 That it's perfectly fine to acknowledge it and accept it. 122 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:09,920 Rather than to work on it. 123 00:09:11,180 --> 00:09:17,800 And it's very wide that, to tell you that... 124 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,520 in the gay movement that's sort of a different angle. 125 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:22,860 And sometimes people think: Oh gosh, are you guys a gay group? 126 00:09:22,860 --> 00:09:24,400 Is it a gay thing or something? 127 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,120 No, it's not a gay thing. 128 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,140 It's a male thing. 129 00:09:29,140 --> 00:09:38,400 But gays are very keen on identifying that identity in terms of sexual orientation. 130 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:42,280 And if you just extrapolated it more: Okay, aside from sexual orientation... 131 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,440 Okay, well, what is it about men, period? 132 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:04,600 I do want to thank you all for inviting me here today. 133 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:10,760 It's certainly very interesting. 134 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,800 Karen's working again, which is cool. 135 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:25,040 Stella's in first grade, and she's doing great. 136 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,120 I don't mind taking care of Jack. 137 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:30,840 I like... 138 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:32,720 I like being a dad, you know? 139 00:10:32,730 --> 00:10:36,930 We spend a lot of time at the park. 140 00:10:36,930 --> 00:10:40,360 Some of the women there, they look at me... little funny. 141 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:47,240 You know, like: Hey, what a cool dad, playing with his kids, but, hmm... 142 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,280 why isn't he out there working? 143 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,120 If people are talking about thoughts: 144 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:06,800 I think that god is this, or that my spirituality is that... 145 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,040 Those are ideas. 146 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:17,040 And there is a place for ideas in a men's team, but, generally speaking, 147 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:26,080 you can express ideas fairly openly in less intimate domains. 148 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:33,640 There are meetup groups on spirituality and on cooking or politics. 149 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:43,360 And, it's important to have a rough idea of what people think about politics and spirituality 150 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,120 as men's team members, 151 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:56,920 but it's wasting precious time if that... is a lot more of that than there is... 152 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:05,040 I'm really anxious about my mother's illness. 153 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:12,860 I'm really horny and I've got the hottest girlfriend that I just met 154 00:12:12,860 --> 00:12:17,760 and, oh my god, I haven't felt this way since I was twenty-two. 155 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,960 I'm so excited. 156 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:28,480 I think I'm gonna land a big deal, I'm gonna get a major contract. 157 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:33,520 I'm lonely. I'm fucking lonely. 158 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,160 I just put my cards... 159 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:41,600 These are more appropriate, it seems to me, for a men's team, 160 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:48,920 for any sort of intimacy group, than sort of the ideological. 161 00:12:48,920 --> 00:13:01,640 And, I think the best men's groups and the ones that are longest recognize that, 162 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:02,640 and... 163 00:13:02,660 --> 00:13:07,300 Because, I might not be interested in politics, or your politics. 164 00:13:07,300 --> 00:13:10,760 Or, environmental issues. 165 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:15,640 But I'm always interested in what my brother is feeling. 166 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,720 That always strikes me as really interesting. 167 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:27,680 So, I think the antidote to intellectualization is to have guys in the team recognizing that 168 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:34,560 and then saying... depending on the culture, some will require that you ask permission 169 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:35,720 to ask a question. 170 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,875 Others: No, you can... (after the end of the share) 171 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:40,840 What are you feeling about that? 172 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,580 You've just talked about this contract and how Joe was doing that 173 00:13:45,580 --> 00:13:51,780 and Ed was coming to get you, and you thought he was trying to cheat you in a way... 174 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,040 Right, those are all facts and figures. 175 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,720 How do you actually feel about it? 176 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,000 What was going on? 177 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,000 That's way more juicy. 178 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,080 I don't really care about Ed and his Machiavellian ways. 179 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:07,000 I'm really interested in your internal world. 180 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:14,820 And the more guys that can sort of herd us all into talking about our feelings, 181 00:14:14,820 --> 00:14:17,440 the juicier it gets. 182 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,440 What is the value of having the other men present? 183 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,680 So, a number of things. 184 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,840 One is that there is support. 185 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,840 There's support for both men to be held in... 186 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,920 I think it sort of validates the sacredness of the container, and that this man can be 187 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,240 supported by other men in whatever way he needs. 188 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:55,720 He might say "Go away," like, you know, "Don't be here," and the group can do that as well. 189 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,480 Or he can feel challenged by the group. 190 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,360 And if he's curious enough, I mean... 191 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:09,029 Generally... my experience is when men are in a group and they develop sort of a sense 192 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:14,200 of safety because, as they get to know everybody's history and the men personally, 193 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,320 then you become to trust and... 194 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,560 I think it opens up where you can go deeper in your process 195 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,920 knowing that you won't be shamed or be misunderstood 196 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,640 or be just discarded, like "Oh, you're you're damaged goods," or whatever. 197 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,080 But I think, the group container... 198 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,180 Also, the wisdom of the group is there. 199 00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:37,020 So, occasionally I'll... 200 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,560 If a man is working on something and the group is there and you can feel the energy, 201 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,360 I can feel... I'm really... 202 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,189 get in touch with... what's feeling here. 203 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,040 A lot of times a man on the outside... 204 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,040 if you say: "What are you feeling here?" 205 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,000 Cause, we're in this collective energy field, 206 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,860 and don't think that what you're feeling is not important. 207 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,019 Like, what are you feeling right now? 208 00:15:59,019 --> 00:16:02,320 And if he goes "Oh, I feel sadness," 209 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,640 and then you can sort of say: "Is anybody else feeling that?" 210 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,560 And, even if no one else is, you can claim 211 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,880 "There's sadness here, as we watch this man struggle with something." 212 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,640 And, another man might say: 213 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,360 I'm bored. This is bullshit. This is taking too much time. 214 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:19,520 That's valid too. 215 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:24,200 There's ... there's frustration. 216 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:25,840 So, you begin to solicit. 217 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,700 And then you realize it's, like... all of that can be present. 218 00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:29,560 It's a part of it. 219 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:30,880 It's how... 220 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,880 What you're feeling doesn't have to be... 221 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,240 It's rarely is where everybody feels the same kind of feeling. 222 00:16:39,259 --> 00:16:42,329 But these are valuable insights, so that... 223 00:16:42,329 --> 00:16:43,720 It's information you can bring. 224 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,950 The man will hear and go: "Does that mean anything to you?" 225 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,360 He's, he's feeling frustrated, and he's feeling sad. 226 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,040 And you see where it goes. 227 00:16:55,040 --> 00:17:01,400 So, it's essential that everyone is participating whether they think they are or not. 228 00:17:01,410 --> 00:17:03,879 They are within this collective energy field. 229 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:05,660 They're hearing the same things. They're experiencing it. 230 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:11,640 But, what's going on inside for them is of value to the overall process. 231 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:20,560 It's one of the things that I notice about men who are part of a good men's group 232 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:30,840 and who show up in fierce authenticity, is they acquire this mountain-like quality. 233 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:39,240 This kind of groundedness, this stability, in their relationships. 234 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:47,920 They show up as the mountain in the lives of the women and children in their lives. 235 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:58,120 And, that is such an important contribution that we as mature men can offer to our homes, 236 00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:05,680 our beloved ones, the women, society in general, our workplace. 237 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:15,320 And, you know, there is this beautiful saying from our tradition: 238 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,640 Man must be the mountain. 239 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,280 So that she can flow like the river 240 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,900 rage like the wind, 241 00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:28,760 pour like the rain, 242 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,080 and float like the cloud. 243 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,760 And that is such a powerful reminder 244 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:43,640 of how multi-dimensional the nature of the feminine is. 245 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,760 And the joy that comes out of that dance 246 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:53,600 of being: that river, that rain, that wind, that cloud... 247 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,399 That is possible. 248 00:18:55,400 --> 00:19:03,800 A woman is able to embody that only when we can show up as that mountain, 249 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:14,000 with that groundedness, that stability, that clarity, that patience... 250 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,800 All of that. 251 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:22,360 See, here's my insurance policy: all the good men I got in my life that will inspect me. 252 00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:27,000 And that'll make sure that when I screw up ('cause I screw up once in a while) 253 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,120 that I can get back on track. 254 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,080 And that I'm not going to take stuff out on her, 255 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,840 and I'm not going to make her pay for stuff. 256 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:35,840 I mean emotionally, whatever. 257 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,899 I'm not going to do that. 258 00:19:37,899 --> 00:19:40,830 'Cause the men I got in my life won't let me do that. 259 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:45,120 Now, I'm going to run up against stuff in a relationship that sometimes: 260 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:49,320 I don't know what to do, I don't know how to deal with her, 261 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,320 I don't know how to be with her. 262 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,640 Now, I have found myself over the last twenty-six years. 263 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,240 The best way for me to get that? 264 00:19:58,240 --> 00:19:59,240 The absolute best way? 265 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,440 Is from other men. 266 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,960 And it's there. 267 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,140 And sometimes I gotta search a little bit to find the right men. 268 00:20:07,140 --> 00:20:10,600 'Cause a lot of men don't have those answers as well. 269 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,240 But there's gold there. 270 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:18,080 When I can find those men that can mentor me and guide me and teach me 271 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:20,480 how to be that man. 272 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,400 How to be with my wife, with my woman. 273 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:28,280 So that... we're not at odds with each other, we're not fightin' like cats and dogs, 274 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:33,800 we're not setting a poor example for our children. 275 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:39,400 So, because I don't need her for all of those things that we need, 276 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,760 my cup's full! 277 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,100 I come home and... 278 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:49,120 I can be there for her, I can be there to listen to her, and to be there for her 279 00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:53,800 no matter what her day's been like, and spend time with her, 280 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,000 and take whatever it is she needs to give me: the good, the bad, the ugly... whatever it is. 281 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,560 Without taking it personally. Without reacting. 282 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:07,400 And also, as a result: she gives me more in many, many ways 283 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,160 than, I think, any woman ever has in my life. 284 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,000 Well, that's pretty good. 285 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,920 I mean, is it all bliss and wonderful all the time? 286 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,800 No, I mean, sometimes she thinks I'm an idiot, I'm a jerk; she gets angry with me. 287 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,559 But when she does, I don't have to react. 288 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,620 I don't have to defend myself. 289 00:21:22,620 --> 00:21:24,640 My cup's full! 290 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,840 Does that make sense? - Definitely 291 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,840 I didn't think it was possible. 292 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:33,880 If I'd have sat here thirty years ago... 293 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,440 Totally different story. Totally different story. 294 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,280 Yeah, what you're saying is really relevant, actually, 295 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,120 to my personal situation right now. 296 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:45,299 And I guess I, um... 297 00:21:45,299 --> 00:21:47,800 And I don't think you're alone there by any stroke of the imagination. 298 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,600 Yeah, and I think what happens is often: 299 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:55,400 the relationship with other men gets not prioritized enough. 300 00:21:55,409 --> 00:21:58,390 And I kind of going like... you know, when there's trouble in the relationship, I go: 301 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,970 Oh my god, I need to put more attention, more time into the relationship with the woman, 302 00:22:01,970 --> 00:22:04,240 and I actually neglect the relationships with the men. 303 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,200 But, therefore, my cup is not being filled in that way you described. 304 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,160 And so, that the time that I'm spending with her is not, maybe, 305 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,680 satisfying or filling her cup in that way you describe, which then... 306 00:22:13,710 --> 00:22:17,789 Yeah sure, we're spending more time together, but it seems like it's more time in tension 307 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,480 or in difficulty, which seems to sorta damage the relationship. 308 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:31,600 And… So I felt more emotionally secure having these close bonds with eight... seven other guys. 309 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:38,680 And, I felt less needy around, say, my girlfriend and that just made the relationship healthier. 310 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,760 If I don't need her so much... 311 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,830 I can be more independent. 312 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:49,560 I can be a little less anxious if things aren't going okay. 313 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,000 And all of that just makes the relationship better. 314 00:22:55,340 --> 00:22:56,720 And also it... 315 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,980 Like, having regular training. 316 00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:04,000 Like, one of the neat things about an emotional... a men's team 317 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:09,230 is that it requires you to sort of go inward a fair amount. 318 00:23:09,230 --> 00:23:10,760 Like: What is really going on? 319 00:23:10,780 --> 00:23:16,600 Like: We don't really wanna hear about your attitudes to the Canucks, 320 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,960 or the environmental catastrophe. 321 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,080 I mean, those could be important subjects, but what we're really here for is like: 322 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:25,680 What really is going on inside? 323 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,920 Let's open up and see. 324 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:35,280 And that actually is good training for when you come to be in a really intimate relationship 325 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:41,760 (like being with a woman) is you've had some practice looking inside, 326 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,320 and figuring out what you feel about things. 327 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,480 And, you can bring that... 328 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,480 I'll call it expertise... to a relationship with a woman. 329 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,190 So, there's another advantage to it. 330 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,880 I mean I say all this, of course... saying 'man' and 'woman': I'm a straight guy 331 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,800 and actually, everyone in our teams are all straight, 332 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,520 but I'm sure the same thing would apply 333 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,820 if I was gay and... 334 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:16,560 and had a guy friend rather than a girlfriend. 335 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,000 Don't tell us that the men here can't be trusted. 336 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,200 Each man in this group has dedicated himself to working on his own shit. 337 00:24:34,210 --> 00:24:39,529 The fact is, you are having problems with your wife and you don't know how to fix them. 338 00:24:39,529 --> 00:24:43,640 No one is betraying you, Mohammed―you're doing that to yourself! 339 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,640 You don't know how to treat women, and you never have! 340 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,700 And... and now your wife is finally saying she's not gonna put up with it anymore! 341 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,300 You just shut up now! - I won't shut up! I'm not gonna shut up! 342 00:24:53,300 --> 00:24:55,440 I've been told to shut up my whole life! 343 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:00,280 My father told me to shut up! My mother told me to shut up! My ex-wife told me to shut up! 344 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:05,080 And I'm not gonna do it anymore! You hear me?! 345 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:19,240 What we came to understand was... is that: That we have to be able to not be conflict-avoidant, 346 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,120 but to be able to sit in conflict. 347 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:25,559 To not lose our voices in conflict. 348 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,120 To maintain our voices. 349 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:29,560 To speak to it. 350 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:35,120 We had to understand the difference between being enraged and outraged. 351 00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:42,800 The understanding that rage, essentially, with men, is a combination of anger plus shame. 352 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,120 That when men are shamed when they're young, their heads drop. 353 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:51,720 And they inculcate that wound in such a way 354 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,400 that, at some point, it's gonna come out as rage. 355 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:06,640 I think if you contextualize it by saying to the person: 356 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,800 I feel mad when you do that. 357 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,120 Because it reminds me of my grade-four teacher, who shamed me. 358 00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:18,200 And I hate you for it. 359 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,200 So, you're claiming the origin of it. 360 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,960 When you said those words to me last week, I was really hurt. 361 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,960 So, I will conclude: I hate you for that. You make me feel something. 362 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,280 Now I have look at the feeling in me. 363 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,300 I have a young... I have a trigger in me. 364 00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:40,520 And you're pushing on this really sensitive spot. 365 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,000 So I want to just be clear here. - Okay. 366 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,660 And so, if you can have that conversation, 367 00:26:45,660 --> 00:26:48,700 you can thank them for aggravating you, 368 00:26:48,700 --> 00:26:53,520 because, if you're willing to follow it back to its origin, you're just realizing it's... 369 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,320 the wound is there. 370 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,600 They've just pushed it, unknowingly. 371 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,760 Okay, the wound is there and it's an old wound... 372 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,460 You're saying: "You are not the problem, but it's somehow..." - Right 373 00:27:04,460 --> 00:27:06,900 But what if they really are the problem? 374 00:27:09,820 --> 00:27:13,400 So... give me an example. 375 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,760 Somebody's just generally a jerk. 376 00:27:20,780 --> 00:27:25,580 Or someone is, um... just being offensive, being... 377 00:27:25,580 --> 00:27:29,440 Right, right. Um... 378 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,360 Or: "I can't stand you." 379 00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:36,480 I think there's great wisdom any time an emotion like that comes... 380 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:37,860 Yeah, I can't stand you. 381 00:27:37,860 --> 00:27:39,570 I can't stand being with you. 382 00:27:39,570 --> 00:27:41,360 You're too demanding. 383 00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:42,640 You want too much of me. 384 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:47,340 That is an opening into healing. 385 00:27:47,340 --> 00:27:53,260 But you've gotta be able to tolerate the... like, whatever it is to be able to say it... 386 00:27:53,260 --> 00:27:55,720 the embarrassment, the humiliation. 387 00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,380 You have to be able to tolerate that when, I think it... 388 00:28:00,380 --> 00:28:04,060 I think our first reaction is when we've been wounded emotionally, 389 00:28:04,060 --> 00:28:04,980 is to get away from the hot stove. 390 00:28:04,980 --> 00:28:09,380 Right? No way. No way—I'm gone, and you're a bad person, and I'm never gonna see you again. 391 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:10,740 That's the way to end it. 392 00:28:10,740 --> 00:28:12,799 But it doesn't clear it up. 393 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:18,120 I think you've got to stay engaged... and: "Would you be willing to explore this with me?" 394 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:20,320 I fucking hate you. 395 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,840 Everything you've said to me, it hurts. 396 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,000 But I know it's... 397 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,400 But I wanna make sure it's not you being a jerk. 398 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:27,900 I wanna make sure that... 399 00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:36,680 'Cause I... what context to say: What's your earliest memory of that feeling? 400 00:28:37,820 --> 00:28:44,560 And ninety-nine percent of the time it's: when I was... blank years old and somebody yelled at... 401 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:49,880 It's an old wound that is just being retriggered. 402 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,160 And you are doing this to me. 403 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:57,160 And... I have had conflicts with people where... 404 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,180 You just want them to die and no longer exist in the world, 405 00:29:02,180 --> 00:29:05,300 'cause they trigger so much in you, 406 00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:07,920 where I thank them profusely for the gift they gave me 407 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:14,020 because they were willing to spar with me and figure this out with kindness. 408 00:29:14,020 --> 00:29:15,820 And sometimes a mediator's required. 409 00:29:15,820 --> 00:29:19,000 Sometimes a therapist there to say: Tell me all the things he reminds you of, 410 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,340 or she reminds you of. 411 00:29:20,340 --> 00:29:22,400 Let's really explore this. Let's really explore this. 412 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,140 And it's just history. It's history. 413 00:29:25,140 --> 00:29:27,140 And it can go back. 414 00:29:27,140 --> 00:29:30,340 To be... to be very young. 415 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:56,400 One occasion where this man, he carried so much anger from all the defeats of life 416 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:01,040 and the injustices of modern life. 417 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,360 And I remember, in this man's case, 418 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,900 the system 419 00:30:10,220 --> 00:30:12,080 let him down, 420 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,040 'cause he was going through a separation and all that. 421 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,360 And it was amazing (he's actually from this land), 422 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:25,120 how tragically prejudiced 423 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,560 the system was towards his separation. 424 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,160 It was prejudiced. 425 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:38,200 And, I may not know the full story, but the way he laid out the events, 426 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,320 the different facts... 427 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:49,400 The men sitting there, they were like: This seems factual. 428 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,720 Why would they say 'no'? 429 00:30:52,720 --> 00:31:01,160 But... and you can imagine his pain, his frustration, the anger, the resentment, ...everything inside. 430 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:09,680 And there came a moment where he just stood up, took his own stick, 431 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:19,800 and he started beating the trees for a good five minutes. 432 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,880 Total wildness. 433 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,320 The stick broke into pieces. 434 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,640 It was flying all over the place. 435 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,000 There was sweat and spit. 436 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,100 At the end of it, 437 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,260 he found a very tranquil place. 438 00:31:45,380 --> 00:31:48,060 A place of awareness 439 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:50,860 from which... 440 00:31:50,860 --> 00:31:53,320 And I still remember. He said at the end... 441 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:54,820 And then he said something like: 442 00:31:54,820 --> 00:31:57,760 You know what? I'm going to make this... 443 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,480 He said two things. Uh, I'm trying to remember... 444 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:06,360 One thing he said was like: I'm going to make this a compassionate separation. 445 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,800 And, uh... 446 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,140 Everything that she wants... 447 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,220 I'll say 'yes' to it. 448 00:32:19,220 --> 00:32:23,760 If she wants to be a lesser person, that's her choice. 449 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,100 That is not going to equate to who I am. 450 00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:32,180 And I am going to approach this whole process with compassion. 451 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,640 If it's going to make her happy, whatever she's gonna ask, I'm gonna say 'yes.' 452 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,220 That was one of the things he said. 453 00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:41,100 The second thing he said was about the system or something. 454 00:32:43,220 --> 00:32:45,960 I recognize, 455 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:51,540 the system is prejudiced against me, against men. 456 00:32:51,540 --> 00:32:53,460 And that's okay. 457 00:32:53,460 --> 00:32:59,400 That is a reflection of the consciousness of our society than of my own greatness. 458 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,900 So, you know what? 459 00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:08,120 It is... they are the ones who should be losing sleep because of who they are. 460 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:09,840 Not me. 461 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,760 I am who I am. 462 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,059 And I'll be in my greatness. 463 00:33:14,060 --> 00:33:17,160 I forgive the system. 464 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:25,900 There's something innate to men, which Bly referred to as the Wild Man: 465 00:33:25,900 --> 00:33:33,000 snatching the key from under the mother's pillow, unlocking the wild man, and going off on a quest. 466 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,140 In mythology, there's always a journey. 467 00:33:37,140 --> 00:33:39,640 There's always, you know, whether... 468 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,840 And who do we meet along the way? 469 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,029 We meet the Cyclops. 470 00:33:44,029 --> 00:33:47,460 We meet the Sirens. 471 00:33:48,980 --> 00:33:53,840 We have to go after something: the holy grail, the golden chalice... 472 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,879 But, we've gotta test ourselves. 473 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:00,160 And then we've gotta bring something back. 474 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,680 Whether it's like Herman Hesse's Siddhartha. 475 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,320 You know, going off. 476 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:06,780 And then coming back. 477 00:34:06,780 --> 00:34:08,340 Or the... 478 00:34:08,340 --> 00:34:11,220 The Return of the Prodigal Son. 479 00:34:11,220 --> 00:34:17,280 It's always about the mission that takes us away so that we... 480 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:23,160 we come closer to who we really are through being tested and surviving. 481 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,540 And then the return.